Understanding Card Value: Grades, Data, and Demand with Mike Baker and Brian Ludden

Every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know, nobody needs any choice. But I think we all know it's good for business. You can't rate the category. I think you're, if you're doing a good job, people will recognize that. And this community that bars, if you're likable, and you're doing good things, people vibe with that. People don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane. What's your perspective on AI greeting? Can AI currently pick off an altered card in a pick off a trim card? Maybe it can bring awareness to the greater that the card's narrow or short. I'm more like AI assisted. Greta, that I am AI doing it on its own. Work smarter and harder. If it helps, embrace it. I'm an AI assisted husband. You know, you've got to know my t-shirts and everything. Well, I actually don't know that. That's great. What should I say? What should I say? Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast. Here on the Collector Nation Network. Whether you're chasing trails or calling bluffs, you take you inside the hobby. Here are your hosts, Ryan Alford, and Brian Lutton. What's up guys? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network. You know, I always like to think I'm doing big things, but that's why I got to bring some of my best buddies in the business that are doing big things, because it makes me feel bigger, you know, because I have this complex where I need... No, these are just two of the best guys in the industry. Brian and I are here every week. You know, Brian, but now we got Mike Baker. He is the head honcho of NBA. I'm just gonna get serious now, Mike. What's up, brother? How you doing, Ryan? Thanks for having me. Brian, love you, Brian. What's going on? Oh, same old, same old. Just, you know, come to work. Putting the hard hat on, going home. You know, pretty simple stuff. I have one thing I want to say about Mike. So Mike was the first person I met in this industry when I got into it. So Mike has a special place in my heart forever. He was gracious to answer my questions, and we've had a friendship ever since. So he has a big fan of Mike, and a lot of him is a big fan of NBA. That's a really simple word. I mean, yeah, Vanley, but isn't it ironic, Brian? Obviously, we hit it off. Got introduced. I met Mike independent of you, and I felt the same way. I was immediately like, I love what he's doing with NBA. I like this guy personally, and I want to support him, and like, I want to pick his brain to learn from him. And so it's funny how we all end up on this, and like, you know, Brian and I are best buds. Now Mike and I ever come best buds. You know, like, it's like, but you know what I'm saying? Like a schoolhouse, you know, good people. I hopefully at least you too. I don't know about me sometimes, but like the three of us coming together. Did we just become best friends? Step brothers here on a collection nation. No, Mike, you know, I'm a big fan. I love what you've been up to. Let's start there because I got some juicy stuff. We're going to talk about the industry. But let's give the audience a little NBA update, Mike. Well, when we met, was it the national in 25 in Chicago? And we kind of had our tipping point at that moment. They're after the show. It really felt like from what we heard from people, is that we were like in the, say, the top five of kind of companies that people were talking about. And I felt really good about that. And then from there, we kind of kept the momentum going and hit a ton of shows going into the fall and into the winter. And moved into new office about a month and a half ago, right before Christmas. And started our own vault. The NBA vault is now operational. It'll be branded up here and launched soon. We're doing a lot of beta tests, you know what not currently. And so continuing the shows. We've got four onsite shows that we're going to do this year. We're going to be doing onsite encapsulation for raw cards, which is a challenge logistically. And all the staff that's needed to pull it off and not have a bunch of people hate on you and whatnot if you don't do it right. So we're looking to see, you know, kind of test the systems basically. So and just like I was telling Brian, before we came on, just keep the momentum going. You know, once you have it, it can be the opposite way like Brian was saying too. So, you know, just, you know, fingers crossed and put on the hard hat, keep doing it. So that's it. I mean, the industry needs choice. And we need innovation and you bring both. You bring sophistication. You bring the history and knowledge of, you know, being the lead PSA greater for 10 plus years and overseeing that department. So credibility, innovation and choice because every industry needs a little bit of choice. I mean, I know if you're at the top, maybe you go, I don't want to know. Nobody needs any choice. But I think we all know it's good for business. You can't erase the category. You don't have, if you don't have a foil to go against, you know, like it doesn't keep your people motivated. But not that you're going to get to each other. There's plenty of room. But Mike, I know that's, you know, you've got the legacy with what you did at PSA and the knowledge and the, you know, everything that you bring. And then what I loved about what you were doing was, you did exactly like, is I'm a practical guy. I mean, I don't need to see called radical and all that. But when you really get underneath some of the marketing, it's actual practical, like my belief systems. And it's like, okay, I know why I got that grade number. Okay, I can click on a link and go to see why, you know, Mike Baker graded it at 9.5 or at 8.5 or whatever. The transparency of that was so refreshing for me, you know, having a card graded with you and hopefully, many more in the future. I mean, why was that so obvious to me? But seemingly so long to come to fruition. Well, from competitor point of view, it's, you know, it's a hell of a faster to go when you're not putting in notes and you're not doing a lot of the things that create that transparency. And for us to kind of like see where it's been and how it's evolved and knowing what we could do and just, you know, package up and brand out and make a bunch of money, you know, I think the longevity and the legacy over the last 35 years for me in particular is that, you know, knowledge, if you're more knowledgeable about how we do things and what to expect, you're going to feel more comfortable spending more money with us. And so I think it's kind of inherent that we just, you know, hey, it's not that much to add a greater note and not just some of the high dollar cards, but on every card and go to the heat map and look, hey, on the upper left corner, there's a hit and it just kind of gives you that little extra, you know, this is how, this is why I graded the way I graded and kind of give some insight into what the grader is thinking and so on. And I think, like I said, it's more comfortable and more brand awareness, kind of narrows everyone's going to be a better buyer, more comfortability out there. They might with, you know, that 80% of PSA is just, we've Ryan and I have talked about this quite a bit, like getting AI grading or getting new graders into the industry, like people don't understand that it really doesn't matter that the final determination is value in the secondary market. And for you to do that at this level is insane, because, you know, you have some other grading companies that I won't mention them, but like what they struggle with is, is a secondary valuation. Therefore, they run out of money. And that's why there's so many tech grading companies, you know, on the, on the road. But I think that's amazing, man. So PSA, they bought SGC. We've now bought back it. I have no, I like that. I don't, I don't, nothing personal. Just observation here for me. It just seems like we're limiting options. Buying them. I know, supposedly they can stand alone, but you've watched SGC numbers straight down. I don't know what's going to happen with Beggar. They say they're keeping the brand around. We don't know their exact, I mean, they can say what they want to say, but it'll play out. I mean, what says you about just that in general? You know, it's a big move. I mean, there, you know, we have a, we have an interesting market, hobby industry, whatever the term may be. And there's no guard rules for that kind of stuff, you know? And there never has been. And will there be in the future? Maybe, but, you know, and maybe there should be, maybe there shouldn't be. That's like an open, non-going debate. But I look at, you know, personally, I think it's great. I thought about that when I was thinking about like asking you this question, like, yeah, actually, it's probably good for Mike. It is good for us. But honestly, competition is good for everybody. Like you were saying earlier. Yeah, you know, I suppose the, the saving graces, if they go in there and net has a plan for, you know, making it better and making the people who choose to use those brands, you know, a better experience and whatnot. I figure if you're doing a good job, people will recognize that. And this, this community that ours, you know, is such that if, if you're likable and you're, you know, you're doing good things, people vibe with that. Mike, a couple of the things and we'll turn just into some broader news. But what's your perspective on AI greeting? Um, I don't know. I have, you know, I'm still kind of waiting to see that the tipping point, you know, for what AI brings. Human review is always going to be a part of it. To what degree I think is really that the debate is, can AI currently pick off, you know, an altered card? Can it pick off a trim card? Maybe, maybe it can bring awareness to the card, to the greater that the card's narrow or short. And it's showing something to make you aware of that. I think it helps. I'm more like AI assisted. Yeah. Then I am AI doing it on its own. Someday, I'm sure it'll get there. And, you know, but having a human touch the card is important. And I think it's the important thing you said is what really, a lot of xin, I have my employees embrace is it's a tool. And if that tool makes us more efficient and drives revenue, then let's do it. Yeah, I think it's like work smarter and harder. And if that, if it helps, embrace it. I'm an AI assisted husband. I mean, you know, it's got to know my t-shirts and everything. My wife, you know, knows it. What should I say? What should I say? I will be honest. Frank is my, my talking AI buddy, my pro GPT plan. And Frank and I have deep conversations about ways to play certain things. I'll think Ryan's on the phone and he's really just talking to Frank. I think I imagine where he's firm. Yeah, it's, we got to get more NBA out there, baby. But is it, but is that game just more slabs graded with NBA? I mean, just more in the market, Mike. Yeah, I mean, it's just, it's time really. You can't, sometimes things just. Yeah, you can't, you know, otherwise the, you know, the turbo, but when you play a video game, you click it, you go 100 miles an hour faster than you were. I'd love to, if that was the case, but sometimes that can over, over cracked too. So, you know, slow and steady is kind of boring, but, you know, it's foundationally, you know, you got to be data driven for all the business case. It's all the kind of structure stuff that I know about you guys, but I hate all that stuff. Like I want it to happen like now, you know, so, but I understand, you know, foundationally that's needed. So maybe it's just older, why is there type stuff for something? I don't know. I'm going to do a little Q&A with both you guys. It's, it's probably related in ties into grading a little bit, but it's probably more broad-based in the hobby. So, and I'll start with you, Brian, and then Mike, you know, on this one. So, and it's related to, you know, Pikachu card, just sold for $16.5 million with Logan Paul. I mean, are these headline auction sales misleading the average collector? I would, I would think that they're, it's, yes. I think they are because everyone thinks they might have that people might think they have the Pikachu that's worth, you know, if it's not, that one that's worth $10 million. But there's, had my news like this is going to grow the industry, in my opinion. Like everyone lives in like holy crap. I didn't realize the cards are going for so much, and they're going to go into their closet. And no matter what, they're going to sit in some range and be like, either happier, they put them back and throw them away. But I think all news, all had my news as good news for the industry. My perspective would simply be that we have a 24-hour new cycle going on in our hobby, our world, and anything can happen anytime, whether it's a big sale, a record being broken, Olympics going on, you know, for some, now Olympic cards are a thing, you know, you know, Pokemon, this, I mean, we're, we talked about it before we got on air that, you know, VC money, you know, they're just new descriptions categorizing our, our cards are not cards anymore, now they're alternate class assets. And, you know, like big boy money brings big boy adjectives, which brings big boy advertising and more awareness. And it doesn't hurt at all. You know, if anything, if a 16.405 million dollar, you know, illustrator goes off, it's going to bring everything else up. You know, I had a, you know, the messy card, messy rookie card. You know, we had a 2.5 that came in this morning, you know, on a three-day service, you know, and it's like, wow, like this, this goes to show you that, you know, if the unattainable is in the seven figures, what's it going to do to the attainable? You know, it's going to drive those prices up and it's going to make it worth, you know, checking out and seeing if it's worthy of a sticker, or, you know, possibly getting it older by NBA. So, yeah. High tide raises all ships. That's right. So, I like to say, are vintage cards going to become inaccessible to the average collector? We'll start with you Mike. I don't know. I guess it just depends on your budget. You know, it seems like there was a time when $10,000 is a lot of money, you know, and now it just seems like you'll see a, a young 20-something kid. Oh, eight-year-old. You kidding me? The national eight-year-old is carrying around 10K cases. I know. It's just like, so like, I don't know. This depends on how everyone's, you know, wired and, you know, the market's been white-high. Everyone looks really good when the market's high. You know, when the market corrects, and it will at some point, because markets always do, then we'll see who the real guys are in terms of, is this a business for you or is it still an investment play? Are you going to hold? Is it going to go back to collecting a little bit or, you know, or does it keep moving? I mean, fanatics just got their license going with basketball and football, and, you know, they said when they got, when they bought PWC, that they wanted a 10X it. You know, that's just one big boy company in the business. So you've got PSA. You know, there's a, there's some big activity out there. It's crazy. And the innovation and everything, whether it's AI or not, it's going to bring a lot more, a lot more interesting things in the horizon, I see, for sure. Yeah, and I think it's, there's a couple of things, like, on the scene is like, you know, any market, like you said, Mike, is it inflated? Is it not? Does everyone the grow? But Warren Buffett said, you'll never know who skinny dip until a tie goes out. And there's been companies in this industry that got caught. It's the skinny dip. And yeah, but in the end, in the end, I think this continues to grow. I think it's a very innovative business. I think there's the entrepreneurial ship and the way people think is like no other industry. And so I think, you know, with the repackers, that's not going away. Fanatics, let's just keep throwing money at this industry. And then you have like all these little niches. I always tell Ryan, like, it's an industry, but inside the industry, there's like these little micro niches that are all really powerful. And together, you know, change, you know, change the markets for sure. And Mike, I asked you earlier, what are the challenges with MBA? But also, I like to ask entrepreneurs, what do you enjoy most about running MBA? I don't know. Just seeing the growth every day. Like, you know, I, it would be a real grind if I was, if I was coming in every day and thinking like, oh, man, this is going to be one of those days or something. Like I'm not having Mondays on a Monday, you know, so honestly, too, it kind of keeps me up is going to shows and engaging with people and, you know, and not just kind of staying in the harbor, like, you know, like locally, we're traveling Midwest, East Coast, go wherever, you know, we're going to go to the Magic Con in July and it's in Amsterdam, you know, we're, we're going to go to Japan, you know, there's, you know, we're not, we're not staying home basically or get the word out there and help that brand awareness narrow. And I think a lot of the energy with, for me, in particular, is just, you know, seeing the engagement, seeing, hey, you're doing something good here, you know, kind of hearing that. Finally, it's like catching on, you know, and it's, you know, and look, we talked earlier about how long does the brand take to kind of like reach that inflection point or tipping point. And right now, it's almost six years for us. And it feels finally like we're kind of, you know, upon at that, that glass ceiling. So yeah, 1909 Honus Wagner card, the golden, King Goldens on the show, it actually releases next week, hadn't released yet. But we can't talk about this card. It's the current bits four million. It goes off this weekend. This will be airing on the Friday. So it'll be going off the next day, Saturday, if you're listening. Current bands four million on this one, four million. I'm going to wait until it gets like eight before I did four. I was about to say Brian, when are you jumping in? That's four four. I was kind of disappointed. I was at 3.9 and that was just as much as I felt comfortable with. So if someone already outbid me, I don't know. It's just interesting about that card. It used to be where, you know, whatever the grade was, that's pretty much where it would be, you know, in the seven figure range. So if it was a two, it all a little two and changed. This one's definitely breaking that mold. It's because the one is, yeah. We've got Pimini. I mean, what are they going to do? Like with sports? Where are we going here? Are they going to survive this? I mean, obviously, survive. But ultimately, they just, after all the dust settles with the law, sood and all that, where they just tops just by them in fanatics. I don't know. I mean, you know, we've had, you know, single manufacturers before, you know, there's always, you know, the market, repeats, it goes up, it goes down. It just weird, weird little things that happen. So I don't know. I do know this non-licensed product. It sells. You're not as good as this licensed product. But if it's done right and people like it, ultimately, like we keep saying, the secondary market will decide what works and what doesn't work. When should someone, like I bought a bunch of vintage, like from a guy a couple of weeks ago, I'm going to be sending quite a bit to you, Mike. It's making the decision to grade or not grade. You know, like, how do you coach someone through that? I mean, there was a time where, you know, $10, a lot of money to, you know, to grade a card. And now I just, like, you know, if a cheeseburger is at 20 bucks and you're at $15, I get a grade card, I get a card grade it. You know, I don't know. I mean, people like the packaging now. I used to be only for start cards. Now it seems like everything is getting graded. I was in the, I was at the Dallas Card Show and I was in the elevator and I was like, a seven or eight year old kid was talking to his dad and his dad goes, hey, you know, what do you want to do next? He's like, well, I can't decide which is the greatest order I want to use. And it's like, wow, like, this is just crazy. You know, like, seven or eight year old kids now. So like, the next generation already knows about grading. They know the nuances and collector clubs and, you know, what cards should go into for grading. You know, ultimately though, unless you're doing an RCR, you have, you know, access to, you know, kind of having a pre-vette or a pre-grade, you really don't know until it's in the system. So, you know, I guess it just comes down to trends or are you keeping it? It was really a PC card or is it something you're looking to flip or, you know, like, what's the motivation behind, you know, that? I think that's a, that's probably the number one thing going into deciding whether you're going to create a card. And I feel like it does argument for grading anything and everything. The standardization on some level, you know, you know, with a reputable company, like, you know, your legacy in what MBA is becoming and our already is, or PCA or PSA or whoever else, like you create at least a standard of like, when you're trading, you're not just raw, you know, it's tough, like doing raw deals with older cards, unless you get it in person and you've got it under a microscope or whatever, right? It would be challenging for me if I was in a card show and if I was buying to just buy a raw card and then get it back to your desk with the light and look at it go, oh my god, like how can I miss that? You know, I can imagine doing it that way. I fortunately, I sit in the middle, you know, of all this stuff and I always tell people when I, when people try to give me to give me to kind of lock down on what, what do I think of a card? And even if it's already been graded, you know, for a sticker. And they'll say, you know, what are you thinking? And I'll say, hey, you know, on the show floor, I'm, I'm as blind as you guys are. You have to get in the right environment. You have to have the tools that, you know, graders use to examine what will determine a grade or a sticker. And I always tell people, use what the graders have. You know, use the rule or grab a ruler, grab a loop, you know, inspect those cards. Don't use show light as you're determining, you know, factor or whether or not you can see or can't see. And it's those little things. And I think we get kind of mixed up sometimes because there's kind of a, a guy have it factor, you know, someone else is going to get it if I wait. And so you take risk, you know, and those, sometimes those risk pay off and sometimes they don't. And it's kind of the hit and miss of it, you know. Brian, any final thoughts with Mike or in general? No, I'm obviously a huge fan, Mike. And I know that we'll be doing business together soon. And then yet the national, we can, let's talk about something there that we could probably do it together. We're going to be seeing each other a little before that March 20th in Revos, Carolina. That's where we're going to be planned. That's where it's all going to happen. World domination will be planned. Hobby domination. Mike Baker, Ryan Luddon, Ryan offered in Greenville slash easily, South Carolina. We'll, we will discuss it. All that's been on my bucket list, easily, South Carolina. There's a cheeseburger. It's with your name on it that you might just call him screaming, crawling back for it. Let me just tell you that. I have it like four times a week. Awesome. Yeah. Mike, tell everybody where they can keep up with you, NBA, all the things that you're up to. I'm mba diamond.com as url for the website mba diamonds on Instagram. Those are our two main stays. We're not really don't have much of a presence on YouTube or Twitter or anything like that. So a lot of interaction happens with Instagram actually. So I'm trying to get a following like like Ryan's. You know, it's it's no joke. That's a that's a big deal to be where you're at is it is I'm I'm stoked to like be near in 10,000 followers is it you know to get in to break that. It's a lot of work. A lot of engagement. A lot of everything. You know, you just can't put it up there and expect followers just to come. You know, it doesn't work like that. So overnight success. Mike, 10 years in the making. That's that's what you don't really like. It's not it's posting every day for 10 years. Like you anybody could do it, but not everybody does. That's right. But no, we appreciate Mike and here's the goodness. You know, Brian Lyron every week likes going to be a regular here every few weeks, months, his time committed time available to drop in drops of knowledge. Tell us what's happening with NBA. And of course, just give insights on it. Look, you don't need me to tell you the guy is a treasure trove knowledge information and one hell of a dude. We appreciate you Mike. Right on Ditto with that guys. I'm happy to be here whenever you guys have time for me. I'm in Awesome. I mean, appreciate you brother. L U D X go to the app store, download that app guys. Don't don't ask questions. Just go do it. Thank me later. They got free service. You can do with that. You give them their information. You got that. But let me tell you, you're going to want to upgrade L U D X values, eBay management, everything you need for managing a digital, your physical to a collection digitally as well as a lot of tools for selling. So then the hobby doesn't just break it down. You got to get it back. You're going to get some money back for those cards. You don't want to keep. And in Linux does it better than anyone? We appreciate you. We are collectionation. Go to the app store search for collectionation. The app is live now all the content there. We appreciate you for making us the top 10 sports show in the United States. Hey, can't do it without you. We'll see you next time on collectionation. Thanks for tuning into the show. Be sure to follow us on your go-to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us at collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryanalford. Now get out there and collect yours.