The Goldin Touch: Building an Auction House Empire with Ken Goldin

I was doing this buying and selling cards before they were written price guides, before the internet, before eBay was in existence. Most of my competitors said, it's not going to get a bit. It's honeyball, $4.4 million. Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast here on the Collector Nation Network. Whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, you take you inside the hobby. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Some people sell cards. Some people build platforms and a very small group of people actually move markets. Today's guest has been at the center of some of the biggest moments this hobby has ever seen. Through golden auctions, he's self redefined what elite collectibles are worth and more importantly, who's paying attention. And with King of Collectibles, the golden touch, he didn't just showcase the hobby he expanded the audience. But what I respect most is this. He understands that value is not accidental, it's timing, it's positioning, it's psychology, and it's discipline. So today, I want to go beyond those headlines and I want to get into how he thinks about leverage market cycles, ego risk and where this industry is actually headed. Ken, welcome to Collector Nation. Glad to be here, Ryan. Thank you for having me. Hey, man, respect, dude. Hey, who would have thought collectibles and it would show up on Netflix? Certainly not me when I was a 12 year old nerd sorting out my cards and my basement. It's brought back a lot of nostalgia for me. I have four boys that got back into it two years ago and I had everything on the shelf when I collected. I had not even brought it out of the closet. The boys had never really shown interest in it and they did and two years later, I've got a show in the hobby, I got a store and I am knee deep in it, but it's been helped and aided by the work you've done in bringing more awareness to the space and knowledge quite frankly. Thank you, I'm glad. My biggest thing when I started Golden, you know, is because I've been the business for years and I looked at the landscape of the industry and I said, everybody who is already a serious collector, they're going to go to my website, I can't say golden.com at that time, it was goldenoptions.com. We didn't have the domain. I said, they're going to find me. What I really want to do is go to people who are the sports fans, the casual buy or somebody who goes into Target and Walmart buys a box for their kids and that's it and doesn't even go to card stores. I said, I want to reach those people. I want to reach mainstream America and that's really what I tried to do since I started Golden in 2012 is bring new people into the hobby and expand the pie, hopefully a lot for myself but as a result for everybody. Hey man, it's smart business. I've done marketing for 25 years for some of the largest brands in the world and you know what I'd call that Ken? That's called, there's something called BDI and CDI. BDI is brand development. You want to elevate your brand but your brand only matters when you elevate the category. You've elevated the category and your brand has come along with it so it's been too dual pass is what I would define that as. You are a category defined or here. You are. I mean, I it's it's been interesting watching kind of the reaction to the show. I want to get into that but I do want to start with this, Ken. You know, we see the show, we see everything that you're doing. What's one thing maybe serious collectors consistently misunderstand about Ken Golden? I would say the majority of people who have a big misunderstanding think that I am a businessman but they think that I am a businessman first or that I am in this for the money. It's a money grab. It's an opportunity because there have been so many people especially since 2019 that have come into the business and you know as you know there's big money but where people have to realize is I was doing this buying and selling cards before they were written price guides before the internet before eBay was in existence okay before cell phone so I have been doing this my entire life and I have never made any money outside of the collectibles industry and it started for me as a passion simply as a way hey I'm going to be collecting how do I afford to buy my next item and I start to lose a little kid acquiring collections keeping what I wanted and then selling off the rest so that's really the big thing is people who do not know saying oh so this guy is some rich businessman you know some hot shot came into the industry selling money pot and then built a big business no that's that's not how it was this the business kind of you know the world kind of came to me with something I had been doing literally since the 1970s true OG so what I'd call that and looking yeah I had to be honest I when I only knew you peripherally and didn't start studying a little bit more I thought that exact thing I was like this guy is just a shrewd bad-ass business dude they would probably and I still think you probably be successful in any business with your smarts intelligence and sort of business sassy but I was hey raise my hand you nailed it that was what I thought so I'm sure others do you probably you have to get that a lot I do I definitely get a lot and you know it's fine and you know look the the difference is you know my wife's the doctor okay and I'll make a generalization sorry for the doctors but a lot of doctors are really intelligent people at what they do medicine but they may not be good businessmen okay there are a lot of people that have a skill and they're very good at that skill but it may not develop to something else you know my I have always been a marketer I've always been a great business person and you know the fact you know my business happens to be a collectible business and there's there are a lot of other auction houses that were around in 2012 that were doing five million a year 10 million a year 30 million a year I was probably when I started you know golden we were probably 250th in sales and then we gradually climbed up the charts until 2019 we were number two and then we overtook heritage as number one that is that's business skill that's marketing that's hard work and that's understanding the market and your customer and honestly a real passion for the business and you know it drives to be the best yeah I mean and look you understood the the the most important thing which is attention matters and attention is currency I look at most auction houses and I'm kind of like but what you realize is attention like mass attention leveraging media leveraging personalities leveraging the people in the space and I mean again I think it shows your marketing chops as much as anything but what was that light bulb moment for you because obviously there's a lot of things and collectibles that are I don't know storytelling moments and look you got autographs and stuff from that that drives attention anyway but there was something or some moment I don't know that clicked for you with mainstream media being an avenue and you know the the friends you've made and kind of putting that out there and leveraging that into awareness sure I mean look my prior to forming gold noctions you know a lot some some people may know I I was the creator of classic trading cards the creator of the classic draft picks four sports you know the first Shaquille and Neil card first Kobe Bryant card I also was the same individual who signed all these legends like Joe Demagio and Mickey Mantle and Muhammad Ali Ken Griffey Jr. Wayne Gretzky Montana Cal Ripkin Nolan Ryan everybody really and put them on on TV I sat on you know QVC network next to Mickey Mantle you know I sat you know on you know HSN next to Joe Montana so I back in literally in my 20s had the idea of selling sports cards and sports collectibles to the mainstream and it's funny all of what's going on now with you know with eBay lives and the whatnot and all the streamers it's to me it's like reminding me hey that's that's you know what what I did in the 80s and 90s you know selling on you know GVC and HSN except there were no that we weren't breaking back then but so I went into the business with a very acute knowledge of not only the trading card industry but a significant number of athlete relationships and a lot of experience of getting comfortable in front of a camera being able to talk to a camera being able to talk to an audience so when you know I when that business slowed and I was I was looking at the landscape and you know that's when some of the auction houses were getting in trouble they were getting in trouble with you know bidding they were getting in trouble with you know selling fake items bad authentication and I said if I establish an auction house where you know first of all you know we guarantee everything we sell which nobody did everybody had in their book you know 20 page disclaimer and you know everything is sold as is no warranties no references no no no representation I'm like screw that I'm like we're gonna give every even autograph you know and and then there may still be a catalog like this if they sold a game used item it said your receipt is your letter of authenticity were the experts and I'm like no I want you know I want to get I want to get something from the athlete I want to get something from the team I want to get some photo match you know so you know all of our cards we said we're going to use the major third party graders all the autographs we want to use you know authenticate you know proper authenticators and same for game use as well as player collections and I said here's what I wanted to you know I obviously been in business for many years I didn't go into the business broke if I'm starting golden so I had money um but I an actuality I started with a hundred thousand dollars and I said I'm really going to take you know the Jeff Bezos approach to business and what I'm going to do is my first couple years I'm going to know that I'm going to lose money and I'm going to try a bunch of stuff that I don't think had ever been done in the industry and I'm going to throw it against the wall and see what stuck so we went out and I tried to find the highest media attention items that I can get and I flew out to Las Vegas I saw my friend Pete Rose and I said Pete I'm starting an auction house I said what you got me goes out crap you know I sold almost everything I said he was but there is something I think you can get you know I just sold this guy my banishment contract from baseball so he put me in touch with the guy who bought it and then we got it for the first auction and at the time Darren Revelle was working for ESPN so he came to the office there was a big big publicity and you know a real dog and pony show um about the auction and making it special um and we got a lot of publicity we generated it didn't sell because I had to reserve didn't sell that didn't matter because I got a lot of eyeballs I got a letter of registrations we did eight hundred thousand dollars in our you know first auction everything sold tremendously um there was a hurricane in the middle of it so I stopped the auction I was hurricane uh hurricane Sandy and we said okay I donated like fifty thousand dollars worth of merchandise that I had and we auctioned it off to to the Red Cross and just generated a lot of publicity and I just tried a lot of things I did a deal with Dupont Registry you know why they sell really expensive cars so people with money I figured go there I did a deal with the robbery port I did a ten-page insert into the robbery port in 2013 with almost no revenue almost no revenue going but I want people to know about gold so I did everything I could in the first two years of business to gather a large audience and I think that that user base that I established whereas everybody else's was stale mine was was brand new they were newly energized people a lot of it was becoming international because of all the media and it was a lot of new money that wanted to spend money collectibles and that business approach of being willing to spend money being willing to go out and lose money and say I don't care how much I lose I want to build market share and so I'm in a position to really compete that's what set golden up for you know the future where it is today that's called branding building brand over time and like sometimes the product isn't the product sometimes the product is the marketing and you seem to learn that a lot of people don't know that because it's just it's hard to because look I'm an entrepreneur I've been an entrepreneur for 10 years you know you got to pay the bills you got to do things you you're you got pressure to want to be successful and make profit but sometimes in those early stages you can kind of sabotage that for the long you know it's playing the short game seems like you understood the long game that was involved in building the golden brand no definitely I mean well look when I started the business I said to my wife you know if I can build this up to a you know a 10 million dollar your business you know again I didn't know how stressful the business would be I didn't know everything I said if I can build we never do we never do again if I can build this up to a 10 million dollar your business you know I can do this comfortably for the rest of my life stress freeing and I'd be happy with a 10 million dollar your business I didn't know you know I'd be pushing half a billion but you know that that's you know that that's how how good businesses good marketing and good industries um you know take hold yeah I can shift things to like deal making and things like that so when a million dollar car lands on your desk what's the first things that you evaluate sure so is this something we have on consignment or is this something we want to get uh maybe it just land it lands in your look I know everything we just talked about builds towards things landing in your lap sometimes okay sure you know a call someone walks in the door a friend of a friend you know you know a million dollar item or card lands there you know okay what do you what do we evaluate sure so first of all I'm trying to you know when I look I'll look at the card and say hey who is this going to appeal to you first of all is is it is it sports or non sports okay and then let's say it sports is it vintage or is it modern and then when I determine what it is and let's say because there is obviously a difference in the way that I would market a PSA 10 charizard or Pikachu illustrator versus a 52 tops mantle versus a T206 Wagner or versus a uh Cooper Flag Superfactor for example right you know they they all they're all going to appeal to to different different people so I really need to look at the card find out why it's worth that much who is collecting that um is it is it something that is leaning more towards hey I need to fill a spot in my collection because this is like a holy piece like like something like a Wagner or is this something hey I believe that Victor Webinyama is going to win five MVPs and this could turn a million dollars into a five million dollar card and then it's therefore my job to explain not only who Webby is but more importantly this particular card why this card is unique okay for example we've got a card right now in the golden 100 I'll use the example Victor Webinyama it is his um tops chrome superfactor it is this first ever NBA licensed autographed superfactor and to me that makes it his most important card it's the first tops chrome card that was issued since the 2008 2009 season um it's autographed it got a high grade of an 8.5 a lot of these supers or you're even seeing people getting authenticated you know you know just off so to me that is a key card and it's up to me to not only put together a package that explains why this card is important the on card autographed the history of top superfractors the the mystery surrounding cards like the like the missing Steph Curry superfactor and this is the first Wemby as well as the fact that as well as the fact of where are the people that will want to buy this card how do I reach them and then on behalf of my consigner how do I get above expectations because cops are one thing what we want to do a golden is we want to drastically exceed cops on all of the high end cards you know right now we've got um well this will you know in our vent in our vintage auction we had a 52-manal uh SGC 7.5 sold at REA eight months ago for 250,000 at the time of rerecording this it's 520,000 dollars on golden um i think that is a result of our videos our photography our you our tremendous user base that is so much bigger than anybody else's but that's really when people comes us with the big items that's really what they want us to do is hey um i'm looking to get several octaves above the comp and this is what you guys and the specialties you know special is that you know you think about like what increases the value of something and it just dawned on to me you got PSA okay you grade it right and that can just the value but now golden is a product the layer on these collectibles that's a multiplier is a lot of what you're describing because of the marketing and cache that your brand will apply to a high and collectible yeah it's it's i think it's i think it's the cache a people think you know i've seen tweets bucket lists sell something on gold and bucket list buy something off gold um but the ability is the importance is you know like when i'm dealing with with a card like that or with with let's say it's a jersey whatever it is that high figure you know i can tell somebody i promise you it is going to sell for x price yeah what i can tell tell him is on the day the auction closes what i'm going to guarantee you is there will not be a single human being on the planet who might have possibly been interested in this card and has the money to buy it that will not know it's on golden dot com right now and it's closing tonight and and that's that that's that's that's all you can do that's all you can do and that's a bigger problem people realize that because a lot of times it's like just people being aware that something is available but when you kind of reach the depths and the width that you guys do at the level that you do i mean you're turning every coin you're hitting every target you know that face this is a facebook ad you know you've got every every eyeball that could be on it that would be interested uh checked on uh and again it goes back to marketing prowess as much as anything uh can and talking with kin golden needs no no introduction uh i want to ask you this kin as i've come back into the hobby and you've got mainstream you know main street uh investors now coming in yeah investment versus collecting you know even kids now you know that are at the shows that are running around and it's like we're flipping you know oh yeah it's always been that way that's not new i did some of that when i was young but where's the line drawn between the collector versus the investor and others getting blurred or it just it seems like i don't know there's more investors than there are collectors well i think that you know first of all the short answer is that there are there are tons of more collectors than there were investors i i can tell you know i i can tell you that uh other collectors turning into investors yeah like it's like but the the the difference is is there are very few in terms of percentage pure investors when i say pure investor i mean somebody doesn't give a crap about what they buy they never take possession of it it goes right into a vault it's for sale it's in limited holding period it's for sale the highest price immediately things like that they don't have any emotional attachment whether they buy soccer whether they buy baseball whether they buy vintage whether they buy modern whether they buy Pokemon or whether they buy a game used item does not matter because it's just an asset there are very few of those people most of the people who are investors do have a passion for it and they prefer to spend their money on something that they like they know they feel they have a better understanding of then say the stock market better understanding of than modern art they feel that their knowledge can make some sort of a difference and an impact and um you know also if especially if if it's if it's if it's if it's an active athlete gives them a general rooting interest right you know like everybody who was a Drake Mayholder was certainly praying for the Patriots in the Super Bowl right yeah we were rooting for the Patriots too only because you know we were gonna sell more of his current than we were saying don't know yeah exactly all those silver prisms but but I think how far is that dropped by the way yeah since the zero roll I look I think I think that the I think the key with Drake May is the whole season was unexpected okay let's face it the whole season was unexpected it gives hope for the future it is another rising team and rising quarterback in the quarterback rich aFC to you know compete with the mahogas in the islands of the world for future dominance and you know he's very young I mean it's his second year so he's very very very young um and you know the other thing is that you can't discount the fact that collectibles 100% have become an alternative asset okay it is there there are there are privately held funds now doing this there are public funds that are being formed to do this there are individuals that do it on their own I know I would not look I will say this this is not how I would invest but I I know people who have 25 million dollar collections and if they buy something for 15 thousand dollars from me they cannot send a check they have to consign to cover it because they have a mortgage in their house they don't have a ton of money in the bag but everything they have goes and they cards because you know they don't trust the dollar they don't you know trust crypto you know you know I don't I don't either sorry they don't trust the stock market they don't trust government bonds but this is what this is what they know so there are people that you know that do that and that's their investment as well and obviously now you know unless you've you know done it very very foolishly you know those those people have done quite well over the past three five 20 years I would say for sure and I want to talk a little about where you see things going but the Netflix show I'm going to ask sort of a question I know the answer to but I just want the audience to hear it yeah show increased deal flow or just visibility um the show increased deal flow tremendously um right now for example you know look a lot of this is a lot of this is you know the acquisition by eBay the single sign on by eBay and things like that as well and access to their 140 million users but you'll really Netflix dropped in April of 2023 and I believe right now probably 80% of everyone who is a registered bitter at golden um has joined since the show came into fruition and we had I would say the largest organic user base prior to that by far over anybody I mean you know and well into the six figures before that even happens so um but it definitely does there are a lot of people um look I got the autonomy ball because of the Netflix show okay and there's an example where people said I'm talking about comps and talk about out performing expectations you know I stir that ball five hundred thousand most of my competitors said this is a fifty fifty ball the fifty fifty ball um it's not going to get a bit you know and I said no it's just things going to go for over a million dollars trust me because I understood the power and importance of autonomy in the marketing um of course four point four million dollars the damn thing went for but that that came to me because of uh because the Netflix you look at the Pikachu illustrator obviously I would not have sold the Pikachu illustrator I would not have gotten the call for the Shields Wagner um I would not have gotten the John Terry collection out of England he he I mean you'd be surprised so many people you know my Instagram right now I've got over four hundred four hundred thousand followers um for you know a guy from South Jersey um who plays with plays with cards um on Instagram and everybody from all walks of life it's not just the individuals who find something it's not just the hobby people who DM me but you know John Terry you know Chelsea legend multiple you know five five primarily championships the champion league champion league championship um you know DM to me on an Instagram to introduce himself I watch the show I'd like to talk to you about my collection I've got other athletes do that I have athletes in the NBA that message me and tell me hey or you I see sometimes you've court side seats at the uh at the six years you're gonna be there this weekend I'm gonna be in town um you know Terry's Halibur is one of those individuals as an example uh the honest is one of those individuals so it it is a great vehicle and it really introduces the world to collectibles and I have so many people that tell me that they are into buying collectibles um cards and everything else because of the show I walked into canon collectibles in Beverly Hills and you know they said I can't tell you can't how many people come in the store and say you know just walking down Beverly Hills you know and walking down our street and walking and say oh I got into cards because I saw came collectibles on Netflix um I was watching this show um Patrick Bettevid had I don't know I don't know if he's famous worldwide nationwide he certainly isn't up and down the East Coast Morgan and Morgan injury law okay John Morgan and John Morgan was being interviewed and he just brings up he goes yeah I was watching this you know showing on Netflix about collectibles can collectibles he goes I got a lot of that stuff and Pacco is uh Patrick goes Ken Golden and guy go yeah Ken Golden Patrick goes yeah I go Ken Golden very well a friend of mine great businessman and you know but like it's it's so it is so many people that watch it and so many it got so many people into it and really um it's been a big it's been a big boost to the entire industry I believe yeah and uh Ken I I have a phrase that I actually uh have trademarks working on it pays to be known yep that's uh I think that's 101 and that a lot of ways me especially when you do it right I mean it's sometimes that there's such thing as negative publicity but uh so what's happening right now I mean how do you keep discipline you know during like peak hype cycles and how it's how do you hold it all together when you know it's there's a lot of things that sort of impact this space I mean you being one of them being a barker or influencer but there's variables outside of your control that can kind of hype things up hype things down how do you balance all that sure so first thing is is you obviously have to be able to have control over what you can control and understand the things you can't control for example there are a like COVID COVID whole COVID thing that was you know to go back to our allen green allen green span you know during the stock market in the in the early eighties bubble you know irrational irrational exuberance okay it was irrational buying during that because we had junk that should not have gone up five or six times it went up because people jumped into it who did not understand and they bought indiscriminately and they were buying stuff like 87 tops you know wax boxes for $250 you know just stuff they're just you know like base cards for hundreds of dollars that we all knew we're going to drop down to like 30 bucks okay um but now what what the good thing about what's happened now is I think every I really do think everybody buying is significantly more educated and has some significantly more knowledge than they did in in 2020 in 2021 when they were buying the things that I see that go for what I say oh my god that is a stupid price it's not because I don't think the item itself is a great item I think it's just an overpay of a great item which may work out for the person in the long term I don't know but that's difference than a stupid price-faring item that should not sell ever be at a premium the stuff that's going crazy prices maybe people think they're high but they there's nobody gonna say that these are not the creme de la creme this these are not the premium items here's things we can control you know we can control you know we can control interest rates we can control if you know I'm running an auction and Bitcoin goes from $120,000 down to $60,000 and some percentage you know not a lot but some percentage of the buyers typically modern typically more TCG oriented than sports oriented happens to be you know holders of crypto and maybe they feel poorer as a result of that you know we also can't we also can't control you know private deals that are not transparent that post really really really big numbers that people look at and say hey is that real and you know my viewpoint is that you can't base an industry off of one comp or one sale and I think that's very important for people like let me let me give you an example I'm going to give you an example a golden okay we sold a first edition Pokemon box the box break of Logan Paul for about one what what what slightly under 1.4 million dollars so people can't go out there and say that a first edition Pokemon still boxes worth 1.4 million it was an experience it was a box break with Logan Paul they were advertising basically advertising slots sold to a large youtube audience the people buying it were businesses and things like that so but somebody looking at that oh my god this thing went for 1.4 that is not a true company just want to tell everybody use your music is it is it possible in a right break that one of these boxes can break again for a million dollars yeah it's possible in the right break in the right circumstances with the right type of celebrities and things like that so that's really the big thing is that that I look at the industry and when I look at trends I try to find patterns I don't try to I if something looks like a complete aberration either and this can be both ways it could be a great sale it could be a shitty sale okay it could be a card that typically comps you know I'm gonna I'm gonna use one that um that is you know very I'll use give you two examples a modern and non-moner 52 tops mantle and 96 tops tops chrome Kobe refractor okay you can have a PSA 10 Kobe refractor but and it's gonna go for double what the next one will based on the aging of the chrome and based on the coloring of the chrome and it is the comb you know it is the chrome greening and things like that because PSA doesn't grain it based on that so the eye appeal of one oh god that's that's only one for 85 thousand dollars but then all of a sudden somebody else can have a sale it's 160 people wanting what's going on is it going up no it was a bad example same thing with 52 mantle you get a 52 mantle on a five that's nice colors and nice centered go for double what one that's also created a PSA five but just doesn't have the eye appeal and maybe it's more off center so people when they're looking at these apps whether they're card ladder or whether it's money movers or whether it's any other app it's out there they have to dig behind the surface data and say hey before I make my judgment is there something else I should take into consideration but basically it's look look at what's going on and really for me a lot of it is don't buy into the hype and the latest hot thing um you know anybody I saw I saw a friend of mine Jared Blaznik post something about all the LeBoubouz he had in his warehouse because he thought it was going to be the next big thing and I'm like dude don't you remember beanie babies I mean yeah I could I could I could I could have called that one um but it's really you know stuff that seems fatish something that seems that could be drastically affected by one incident um those are the things to be uh to be wary of and um you know look and you know everything cycles up and down we are absolutely in I don't want to call peak market because some people mean peak market is the top I don't mean peak market as the top because I don't want to call a top but we are definitely in a hot market we're in a peak market um but the bases continue to expand it doesn't mean stuff can't go down 30 percent or 40 percent in a three or four month period and if stuff does go down 30 or 40 percent it doesn't mean it's over what it means is it's a business cycle baseball's been around since the 1860s baseball cards have been around since the 1860s you know it's it's something I think that's going to go on for you know as long as you know as long as there's people on earth is going to be collectibles yeah agree it's built into the human uh condition whatever that is I think we are talk with Ken golden uh Ken you kind of answered this but I'm going to let you put a fine point on it um it's kind of two parts you entered the second part but I I think there's a lot of curiosity out there you hit we're kind of in a peak or not a peak but a high point uh right now with both awareness interest and maybe prices um I was going to ask you like are we in a long-term maturation phase or another set-up cycle and then part two of that was if we did hit it kind of a downturn which segment holds strongest vintage high-end or modern sure so look my viewpoint is that we are in an expanding market okay and the reason where I can tell you an expanding market is you know I think that I I sit when I when I look at a keyboard when I look at a when I look at a screen I mean I think I sit at an access point that is better than any other human beings access point in the entire industry when I say that I mean better than Michael Rubin of tops I mean better than that Turner of PSA I mean better than everybody because at the same time I have the ability to see all the sales not each individual one but all the sales and trends um for all the collectible categories that are going on on eBay because golden is an eBay company and I'm besides CEO of golden I'm an corporate officer um but the admin of golden so every day I can see how many new users I'm getting how many new bidders how many people are applying for credit how many people are asking to have their bid limit raised um how many bids a day we're getting how that compared to a week ago how that compared to a month ago how that compared to a year ago what my average ASP all this information that people would kill themselves to get I see it all the time and I walk around with my iPad and I'm looking at it all the time so I can tell people from an educated point that the market is still expanding that there are people from other countries that are getting into it that there are pockets around the world that never bought you know never bought collectibles in general but certainly never bought cards that are now buying cards so we are and we are in a market that is continuing to grow and I expect honestly with I expect with the fanatics impact you know and with you know more money being spent by the leagues and marketing I I expect that we will continue to expand the collector base but expanding the collector base does not necessarily mean a smooth ride for prices it does not necessarily mean a guarantee of prices going up um because there is a lot of fluff when we have repack businesses that can be selling multiple repack companies that are digital repack that can be doing five hundred million dollars a year recycle recycling the cards you know over and over and over again the same created cards and the buybacks and this and that and everything else like that there is certainly a lot of risk built into the market and people should understand that this is a market that is built on a significant amount of risk and they should be engaging business accordingly um at some point certain things will go down now my viewpoint always is whatever goes down the least is going to be both the least speculative of everything as well as the longest running so to me it's an obvious answer to me I think that the the most speculative and the market that has been on fire the most has been the TCG market okay um especially Pokemon around the past two years except anybody who's been dealing with business and and now you have one piece and everyone's buying one piece because they want they want to will one piece into being the next Pokemon and they want to get those they're doing what they do with friggin NFL draft pick quarterbacks they're they're projecting a guy to win three super balls when he before he's played a game in the NFL and they're pricing that into it and and that's that's that's how people get burnt so um that would be to me the the the the riskiest only because it's the newest and it's the most fluffed up over the past few years um to me the safest is going to be vintage specifically the boring vintage baseball you know nobody is well I will tell everybody this nobody is going to lose money buying the key mantle cards it's just it just it just doesn't happen it hasn't happened for 70 years there you go I uh my uh I had my harman killer brew will be maize and Mickey Mantle said yes stick with that 68 fence busters this is a 1968 super stars tops and then I brought this because you pulled two of them okay oh god there you go burn mash again yeah yeah I pulled it uh oh pulled it right at him right out oh my god look at you no send me that again as a thank you that's awesome dude oh yeah so vintage all vintage baseball so not oh my basketball is no good so battle basketball but what basketball has is you know outside of soccer basketball is the most international of all the sport thanks for tuning into the show be sure to follow us on your go-to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on youtube visit us at collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Allford now get out there and collect yours